EU waiting for the UK government to collapse
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean View Post
    Just out of interest, for the points listed above - do you believe that;

    All EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be unable to 'get home' to the EU and effectively become unwilling hostages in the UK?
    All EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be unable to access/transfer their money between the UK and the EU and vice-versa (since banking is a service)?
    That the EU doesn't/won't recognise the International Driving Permit/License (currently 5.50 a pop)?

    Also, as a follow-up to the first two questions;
    That the EU will let that happen to 'their citizens' in those two instances?
    Chopper's point was that if even one of those things are resolved (including, for example, a last-minute deal on flights) then by definition that is not a "No Deal" scenario.

    (Your second point is not relevant, of course - can anyone from a non-EU country access their money in the U.K.? And your third point about IDPs is a workaround, not a treaty question.)

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    Chopper's point was that if even one of those things are resolved (including, for example, a last-minute deal on flights) then by definition that is not a "No Deal" scenario.

    (Your second point is not relevant, of course - can anyone from a non-EU country access their money in the U.K.? And your third point about IDPs is a workaround, not a treaty question.)
    Yes, I appreciate his point on that - my point, is would the EU allow the removal of a convenient method of travel from their citizens looking to 'move back'?

    Yes they can, although I'm sure there will be an arrangement. If you read the article at https://www.ft.com/content/ceea2c78-...2-0c7211ef3198 - they think payments will be affected, so it's not just me pondering this.

    A workaround it may be (although it's the BAU for most countries not operating recognition isn't it?), but it makes his point moot in reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by sasguru View Post
    'NEED is the same as WANT, it's pedantry to say there's a difference'

  3. #23

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    Default EU waiting for the UK government to collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Bean View Post
    Yes, I appreciate his point on that - my point, is would the EU allow the removal of a convenient method of travel from their citizens looking to 'move back'?

    Yes they can, although I'm sure there will be an arrangement. If you read the article at https://www.ft.com/content/ceea2c78-...2-0c7211ef3198 - they think payments will be affected, so it's not just me pondering this.

    A workaround it may be (although it's the BAU for most countries not operating recognition isn't it?), but it makes his point moot in reality.
    If there's no bilateral Open Skies agreement on exit, then by definition there will be no air travel between U.K. and EU airports. I'm fairly sure the EU doesn't want this, therefore by definition it is unlikely that we will exit with "No Deal". I'm sure you can appreciate the pedantry of the question, though. :-)

    For personal bank accounts, I have multiple non-EU accounts that I can access here, and have used my EU ones in non-EU countries. I'm assuming that it's VISA/MasterCard that are facilitating this though, and wouldn't require any separate agreement between the EU and UK after exit.

    For recognition of licences, I drove on my non-EU licence around Europe back in the late 1990's with no problem (except for Czech, which wasn't a member of the EU then and didn't recognise my licence). I have no idea if this is due to an EU law or country-by-country, presumably though it will require some sort of amendment to a regulation within the EU or EU states. Just one of those fiddly details that someone needs to remember to do...

    Slightly related, car rental insurance in the EU recognises licences from many non-EU countries, but presumably this is a corporate decision based on risk rather than regulatory? Or perhaps it is based on regulation, since an invalid licence on the road would invalidate the insurance.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    If there's no bilateral Open Skies agreement on exit, then by definition there will be no air travel between U.K. and EU airports. I'm fairly sure the EU doesn't want this, therefore by definition it is unlikely that we will exit with "No Deal". I'm sure you can appreciate the pedantry of the question, though. :-)

    For personal bank accounts, I have multiple non-EU accounts that I can access here, and have used my EU ones in non-EU countries. I'm assuming that it's VISA/MasterCard that are facilitating this though, and wouldn't require any separate agreement between the EU and UK after exit.

    For recognition of licences, I drove on my non-EU licence around Europe back in the late 1990's with no problem (except for Czech, which wasn't a member of the EU then and didn't recognise my licence). I have no idea if this is due to an EU law or country-by-country, presumably though it will require some sort of amendment to a regulation within the EU or EU states. Just one of those fiddly details that someone needs to remember to do...

    Slightly related, car rental insurance in the EU recognises licences from many non-EU countries, but presumably this is a corporate decision based on risk rather than regulatory? Or perhaps it is based on regulation, since an invalid licence on the road would invalidate the insurance.
    I always try to appreciate the pedantry of the question
    and yes, this I suppose is the answer I was expecting from Chopper, namely that there will be some agreement over it.

    Interesting, however this is a unique set of circumstances, for which there is no precedent. That's why the FT has listed a few concerns in their article. For the same sort of reasoning as flights, I expect some kind of agreement/amendment etc.

    A few hurdles, but basically EU agreement (which we will leave unless agreeing something);
    Driving licence recognition and validity - Your Europe
    So IDPs look like the go-to workaround, if nothing else is agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by sasguru View Post
    'NEED is the same as WANT, it's pedantry to say there's a difference'

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    Very true. If it wasn't for the Falklands, Thatcher would never have got a second term and wouldn't have taken control.

    But who will the UK go to war against?
    Spain. After the Fascist Unionists in the UK backed the Fascist Unionists of Spain in Catalonia, Spain will get bold and invade Gibraltar


  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batcher View Post
    Spain. After the Fascist Unionists in the UK backed the Fascist Unionists of Spain in Catalonia, Spain will get bold and invade Gibraltar

    I wish we could be on the same side as Germany.
    I'm single now, and it's really weird for me to be dating again because, for the last three years, I've just been cheating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    Very true. If it wasn't for the Falklands, Thatcher would never have got a second term and wouldn't have taken control.

    But who will the UK go to war against?
    I believe that Boris has said the UK will back the USA in it's mooted war against North Korea, leastways he seems to be bigging up Trump today...
    Pants are no good unless they stick to the wall after you've taken them off.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    But who will the UK go to war against?
    The evil EU obviously. Now is the perfect time to strike before EU gets its own army...

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean View Post
    Just out of interest, for the points listed above - do you believe that;

    All EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be unable to 'get home' to the EU and effectively become unwilling hostages in the UK?
    The Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation applies, article 6. "No scheduled international air service may be operated over or into the territory of a contracting State, except with the special permission or other authorization of that State."

    Basically, no flights allowed between UK and EU without a specific agreement permitting those flights. The UK could, in theory, create a law which permits the aircraft and airlines of EU member states into the UK, but we couldn't force the EU to reciprocate. You know, without a deal. So we'd expect a bilateral agreement between the UK and the EU to permit flights. Probably an open skies agreement.

    Similarly, the US doesn't currently have a specific agreement for UK airlines and aeroplanes to fly to the US. Instead they permit airlines and aeroplanes from EU member states. The day we cease to be an EU member, and therefore not an EU member state, will be the day that flights between the UK and US must cease.

    So yes, without a deal, EU citizens in the UK could not fly to the EU on an aeroplane.

    (I don't believe this is a likely outcome, but with "no deal" then this will happen. And I don't believe the EU would start negotiating an EU to UK bilateral treaty until after we become a third country in that scenario. The best outcome is to remain within the European Common Aviation Area, under the regulatory supervision of EASA and with aviation law under the jurisdiction of the ECJ as they are pre-requisites to ECAA membership)

    All EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be unable to access/transfer their money between the UK and the EU and vice-versa (since banking is a service)?
    No, I don't believe that to be the case. That isn't what is meant by a service.

    From
    Freedom of establishment and freedom to provide services | EU fact sheets | European Parliament

    Self-employed persons and professionals or legal persons within the meaning of Article 54 TFEU who are legally operating in one Member State may: (i) carry on an economic activity in a stable and continuous way in another Member State (freedom of establishment: Article 49 TFEU); or (ii) offer and provide their services in other Member States on a temporary basis while remaining in their country of origin (freedom to provide services: Article 56 TFEU). This implies eliminating discrimination on the grounds of nationality and, if these freedoms are to be used effectively, the adoption of measures to make it easier to exercise them, including the harmonisation of national access rules or their mutual recognition (3.1.5).

    That the EU doesn't/won't recognise the International Driving Permit/License (currently 5.50 a pop)?
    I didn't say that. I'm not sure if UK Driving Licence holders entitlement to an IDP is based on the UK being a EU member state, or whether the UK is a party to the IDP scheme in its own right.

    However, this is a workaround - as others have said. This isn't recognition of the UK driving licence by the EU member states.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtW View Post
    The evil EU obviously. Now is the perfect time to strike before EU gets its own army...
    There is no doubt that British forces will prevail alongside their allied Narnian unicorn cavalry divisions.
    Where there's muck there's brass.

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