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  1. #21

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    This one stinks of go legal, do not pass go, do not shilly, shally about.

    Your old contract is in force as are the terms and conditions, write them a serious letter (via special post so they can't claim it didn't arrive), include all invoices to the date of the letter and be completely prepared to take it to court, in your shoes I'd be telling them to poke it if they are trying to ram backdated terms and conditions on you.

    It's possible that they will buckle, but frankly they're taking the mickey on a monumental scale so you need to get proper considered advice on how to proceed, since you're looking at disputes of multiple months of invoices then Small Claims court may be out of consideration.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    As Crossroads alludes to, the devil is in the details here and I don't think we've enough so far.

    When you say it was rolled over... Did you get a renewal through stating the dates of the renewal and a statement saying existing T&C's are the same. If not then you've made a rod for your own back. You run a company and you have to act like one. You cover yourself with signed paperwork detailing exactly what the score is. Don't accept a mail saying it's rolled over. Nothing good will come from it. You should also be getting a new schedule of work detailing the tasks you will be doing in the period to be fair.

    If you'd gotten that letter explicitly stating the terms and dates they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. They are quite within their rights to serve you notice and present you with a new contract, take it or leave it. Banks do it regularly. If they had been smart they could cite the old contract has finished and terminate it immediately and present you the new one with the new 'client'. Refusing to back pay until you sign is right out of order yes but don't think there is much you can do about it now. I'm guessing after 4 years you are just going to plod on.

    It's slightly off topic but 4 years at a client isn't really an IR35 issue per se but often leads to part and parcel issues and a lax attitude to your engagement. 'rolling contracts' can be bad for IR35. The two together start painting a pretty poor picture of your situation and I am sure are tip of the iceberg. If you are going to continue I'd suggest you have a long hard look at your IR35 status going forward.
    I asked the provider throughout July for a new contract - there response was first to lie and say one was in the post, then later said do not worry - the contract has rolled over.

    As they only indicated on 5th August that they were making changes to the contract, I don't see how it can be legal to back date the changes.

    Yes, true IR35 is a concern, but this is not my only client, and there are other factors that I believe help - but that's not my main concern right now.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by uk2016 View Post
    I asked the provider throughout July for a new contract - there response was first to lie and say one was in the post, then later said do not worry - the contract has rolled over.

    As they only indicated on 5th August that they were making changes to the contract, I don't see how it can be legal to back date the changes.

    Yes, true IR35 is a concern, but this is not my only client, and there are other factors that I believe help - but that's not my main concern right now.
    IR35 is a per contract tax. It's perfectly possible to have 3 contracts running at the same time, one in IR35, two outside. HMRC's old disregarded business rules have gone and were never that accurate anyway...
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by uk2016 View Post
    I asked the provider throughout July for a new contract - there response was first to lie and say one was in the post, then later said do not worry - the contract has rolled over.

    As they only indicated on 5th August that they were making changes to the contract, I don't see how it can be legal to back date the changes.

    Yes, true IR35 is a concern, but this is not my only client, and there are other factors that I believe help - but that's not my main concern right now.
    Better check your new Ts and Cs - there may be a clause about not working for more than one client, which would wedge you firmly between the cheeks of IR35.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

  5. #25

    I live on CUK

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    Quote Originally Posted by uk2016 View Post
    I asked the provider throughout July for a new contract - there response was first to lie and say one was in the post, then later said do not worry - the contract has rolled over.
    Part of the problem here is your own apathy.

    If I don't have any contracts or agreements in writing I down tools. I don't let contracts roll over.

    Quote Originally Posted by uk2016 View Post
    As they only indicated on 5th August that they were making changes to the contract, I don't see how it can be legal to back date the changes.
    They will try it but it's up to you to get legal and state it is not acceptable.

    Safer Collections has already appeared on this thread to help you so I suggest you contact them and ask them for advice on:
    1. Getting your invoices paid
    2. When you should call them in to chase up invoices

    Moaning here about what the agency has and hasn't done isn't going to help you.
    "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

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    Quote Originally Posted by SueEllen View Post
    Part of the problem here is your own apathy.

    If I don't have any contracts or agreements in writing I down tools. I don't let contracts roll over.
    If I had an email confirming an extension for six months, with all terms remaining the same, that's legally binding as soon as they let me on site on the first day of the extension. I've accepted it by being there and they've accepted it by allowing me on site.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safe Collections View Post
    The back dated contract that has the "pay when paid" clause? We wouldn't recommend that.

    Our advice to the OP would be stick to your guns and get paid first, then make a decision as to the new contract.
    Same here, that clause is a major issue for you, if the agency are on a 90 day payment term from the client and the service provider is on 90 days from the agency when do you think your going to get your money, you could be looking at 6 months before you get paid, I had this in a contract before and we had to get it amended because the contracted would have ended 2 months before getting paid for the first weeks work

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by uk2016 View Post
    I asked the provider throughout July for a new contract - there response was first to lie and say one was in the post, then later said do not worry - the contract has rolled over.

    As they only indicated on 5th August that they were making changes to the contract, I don't see how it can be legal to back date the changes.

    Yes, true IR35 is a concern, but this is not my only client, and there are other factors that I believe help - but that's not my main concern right now.
    How was "the contract has rolled over" communicated, if in an email or something tangible than that is fine, you carry on until someone terminates the contract, either by mutually agreeing and end or superseding it with a new one (which it looks like has tried to be done here).

    If the new contract was presented on the 5th, this would only be valid if the old contract was terminated correctly as per the terms in the original contract. (How much notice was required in the old contract)

    If the contract on the 5th was presented, but back dated to July that is irrelevant as you had a valid contract (even if only assumed) for the period so you didn't have a written contract.

    If the notice period on the old contract has been completed from the 5th to today, leave the client (taking as much evidence as you can) and start chasing payment (see dunning).

    IANAL but it looks like you are covered, its just gonna be a ballache for you to get your money, on the plus side you have a bloody good IR35 defense out of it,
    “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

    ― Marcus Aurelius

  9. #29

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    The other thing to consider if you decide to take legal action is that your contract may be terminated.

    Have you spoken to the end client, they may not be aware of the actions of the service provider.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by eazy View Post
    The other thing to consider if you decide to take legal action is that your contract may be terminated.

    Have you spoken to the end client, they may not be aware of the actions of the service provider.
    Correct and a good point.

    If you have a good working relationship with end client, talk to them about the situation. While they may shrug it off, explain that the situation could lead to you going offsite as you do not wish to expose yourself to more risk than is necessary.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

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